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Edited to take on deploying within the LS: Storm, and mentioned the wide range of weapons as a pro.

CR

Wow, moms are great.

Inexplicably, my mom handed me fifty bucks and told me to go get some RG mini's... Okay, I guess it was late bday money, and she actually said "go make yourself happy..."

So I got a few extra dollars together and got 2 boxes of scouts, a telion, and a chaplain with a jumppack. Woo hoo! (Of course, telion and the chaplain have nothing to do with the post... doh.)

I'm going to put together a sneaky fist to go along with my already built bolter scout squad.

My question then becomes, would it be unwise to have a mixed unit of shotguns and boltpistol/combat knives? I know this would lose some of the initial firing, but then with the high initiative and extra attack, it might provide more wounds on the assault, esspecially if it continues into the next round.

Also, no ap on the shotgun could cause problems? I'll wait for advie and maybe play some games with substitute models before I commit.

I was thinking 5 guys with shotguns, 4 with bolt pistol/combat knives, 1 sgt with powerfist.

Severely belated thankyou to CR for another outstanding post!

Nice! You got some good stuff there mate. The sneaky fist takes a little planning and fore-thought to get the best from, but can really help in the long run =)



It doesn't sound unwise to me - sounds like you're maximising the potential of one large unit.
In my example I decided to take 9 shotguns + fist simply because it gave more kick at range than the pistol/CCW option, as being able to cut down the enemy while they cannot hit back is always preferable, while ultimately both combinations have the same total number of potential hits per turn.
I.E. Shotgun - 2shots + assault ( 1 hit + 1for charging) = 4 potential hits on the charge per turn.
BP/CCW - 1 shot + assault (1 hit + 1for charging + 1 for 2xCCW's) = 4 potential hits on the charge per turn

Should CC continue into another turn, then BP/CCW provides an extra hit over the shotgun, and allows you to finish off the enemy a little faster.

Having no AP on the Shotgun means that practically every unit you'll ever face does get an armour save, but that isn't a problem, as they'll also get an armour save from those close-combat hits as well (not including the fist!). The BoltPistol may have an AV value and there are a lot of units out there who's armour the BP can ignore, but against most common targets that the fist would be thrown at (HQ's/etc), then the AV value of the pistol doesn’t make much difference. The Strength of both weapons is the same, so that doesn’t factor into it either!

Regardless of what you do take, I really do recommend you play around with 'unarmed' models and use them to proxy what ever combinations you want for at least a couple of friendly games. That way you can settle on something you've tried and tested on your own and feel comfortable using.


Always welcome. If you have any more questions (or my reply’s don’t cover what you want), throw us a post and I'll be happy to help out =)

Best of luck with your new squad!

CR

I'm working my way through these tacticas and finding them really useful, so thank you muchly for them!

I like the idea of the camper scouts, but they seem horrifically vulnerable to anything like a drop pod where people holding a couple of flamers coming out. Is there any way round this? It's possible to intercept other transports or units incoming with rest of your army, but something like this (or an outflank as you mentioned) really make me doubt the usefulness of this unit compared to, say, a squad of tactical marines. Which is a shame because I love the idea of snipers!

Firstly, thanks for the complements. I'm certain all the Tactica writers are thrilled to know another has found use in their works.

Now on to the scouts.
Yes, camper scouts are painfully vulnerable against templates and assaults, and against a 1st turn drop pod there is little you can do....beyond taking a LandSpeeder Storm =)

LS: Storms double the potential scatter when the pod tries to arrive within 6inch of it. Pods can scatter to within 6inch without being subject to that rule, but its a deterrant that really helps put the fear of the emperor into enemies wanting to pod in behind the scouts.

Another option is to have an armoured vehicle, such as a Pred, Razorback or Dread, camping nearby for the first turn or two to provide much needed support if they do get hit. The problem then is you're dedicating 300 to 400 points to one corner of the board, and it may never actually see action!

I've had some success in the past sitting a 10man scout squad with snipers and HB right infront of a Pred with TwinLinked Las and HB sponsons (I really advise using autocannon though!), simply due to the range of both units, and the higher threat from the Pred dwarfs the presence of the Scouts - even though the Scouts do more damage against infantry more often than not!

Ultimately, the unit should pose a limited threat compared to the rest of the army beating down their heads from turn1 charges or the pair of pie-plate vindi's your packing (i dont know the rest of your list, so guessing!), so the enemy will target more important and constly units (such as vindis) before worrying about a unit of scouts - something he might live to regret when Telion pumps his HQ with lead =)


My best advice is simple. Give it a try. Ask your friends/opponents/whoever to give you a game with a list that encompasses a Camper-Scout unit and see what happens, make a few notes during the game and ask your opponent afterwards why they did certain things, what they thought of the scout unit and how they planed to react to it - every piece of info helps =)

CR

So I am a few games in with scouts. I'm enjoying the early freedom of deployment and the scout move, getting in and or near bad guys early on.

Here's where I'm at. Mind, much of this is paraphrasing the excellent tactica that came before my post!

I'm resisting the urge to treat scouts like a meat shield, like I would in some armies. They are still way more points than a kroot, or an eldar gaurdian. From a fluff stand point, they are the new blood, so although not as great in stature and honors as marines in powered armor, they are battle brothers.

Instead, using them as a bait/speed bump that gets reinforced is great, especially in conjunction with cover. I'm following some of the proscribed methods, but also improvising a bit with tac squads in rhinos pulling up at the last minute, or a similar tactic with assault marines and captain Pendrecki. My current favorite is to have a full 10 man sneaky fist squad in cover, and gating in a librarian for when they take an assault.

Folks seem to overlook the power of looking like a low cost piece like a gaurdsman, but having s 4 t 4 and carapace armor!

taking cover from the enemy in his own back yard with infiltrate and scout move is great.

Attrition in the sneaky fist is obscene with the loss of a few members really weakening it. Also, if the higher initiative guys don't get enough hits, then there isn't enough of a squad left for it to make a difference when the fist hits.

I'm interested now in tactical squads in rhinos operating in support of sneaky fist type units.

I'll still get snipers, and ultimately a second sneaky fist or close combat style squad.

Incidentally, my scout sergeant came out pretty good using a stock captain powerfist. It makes him look larger than life. I used a veteran head too, so he sticks out from the rest of the squad.

Hey, also, in handy tips... point 5 CR mentions a dedicated transport (read rhino) pick-up, Where do I find the rule for that? I tried to use it and people got upset. Then, if the transport is empty turn one, could you embark straight away turn one?

I think nothing in the rules prevent your scouts from embarking an empty Rhino at turn 1.

I'm curious, why does this upset your foes ?
Even this is not their dedicated Transports, let's imagine
the entire original tactical squad is dead,
their Rhino driver would refuse to embark the scouts ?
This would sound weird.

I find this is a shame that Scout cannot use a LS Storm as dedicated transports.
This way we would see more SM scouts on w40k tables.

Good to read feedback on heavy use of scouts.

I find the the snipers to be very precious against multi-wound / high toughness characters.
For example, last night vs a Demon army, only 5 of them removed 2 wounds on a bloodthirster, and 1 from a DP.
When opponents realized the threat, he shot all his ranged weapon at them.
They did duck, and made good saves at 2+ with camo-cloak.
Ok, my scouts were on the ground with 1 killed, but he lost a turn of fire against me !
Invaluable, and so Raven Guard Stylish

However, I'd recommend a 10 men squad to resist at least a turn vs a Deep Stroke Heavy Flamer.

I haven't use CC Scout with Fleet yet, but a think a 165 pt hidden fist could perform well, with a focus on blasting from the rear
enemy tanks. Like you I refuse to see them as meatshield, as they are the next Raven guard marines.

On the opposite, I do see them engaging Imperial Guard or Guardian.
In fact, i think they're better than tactical squad for this job, because they can all be specialized for CC.

First off, thanks for reading and giving some of the tactics a try. Its nice to know these tactica do get read! =)


Now, as for your question. You can actually deploy your scouts inside a transport via one very sneaky little rule, the Scouts USR!

The Scouts USR permits a 'Normal Move', in which you are allowed to embark! So deploy your scouts next to the rhino/razorback, declare your Scouts move, and embark! Easy!

Transports in the 5th Ed rulebook can carry ANY unit that is permitted to embark on it (IE - no termies in a rhino). Taking a Rhino/Razor with a Tactical squad is considered a 'dedicated transport', who's rules are covered exactly on page 67 of the rulebook. As a quick overview, dedicated transports can only carry the unit it was selected with during deployment and after the game begins it can carry any other friendly infantry unit.

Now, if your opponent argues that the 'Scouts' move is made before the game begins and so stops you doing this, smile and let him claim his moral victory. Just ensure the scout unit is 1inch away from the rhino as you start turn 1, embark and move as normal (if vehicle has not moved, it can move with its passengers as normal - page 66). Once you've moved, you can always tell your opponent that his love of the rules did nothing to change the end result =)

Enjoy!

CR

"When they do assault from the transport, the LS: Storm's 'Cerberus Launchers' reduce the enemy initiative by 2, granting the Scouts a chance to strike first in hand-to-hand combat."

Hey CR, according to the codex the " Cerberus Launchers" reduce the leadership by 2, which is helpful only if you win the assault. I'd prefer the reduced initiative too, which sounds more logical, but...

As far as I know in the errata this hasn't changed.

Its a good job someone knows the rules around here eh? You're right, it is Leadership, not Initiative as I'd originally written. Thanks my friend, the Tactica has been updated to reflect this.

CR

You're welcome man !

Wow, so one of the biggest issues I've had with scouts is solved, as ussually my tactical squads are headed towards my scous in support, The rhinos can get my scouts around. Nifty, also at deployment I can switch things up by alternate deployments than the ones I've been known to use.

I know, long time no write... but I've been busy planning, ponderng, and procrastinating as usual (well... working actually) soI haven't had much time to do more than just glance at the boards.

I was wondering about the potential effectiveness of a little scout-based combo I've been dreaming of to add a little more bite to a drop list: A pair of 5 man scout squads (ccw and bp), power-weapon and combi-flamer on the sergeant, and a LS Storm with Multi-Melta. I figured with the scout move... these bad boys could get into position to drop off the scouts in support of the initial drop... giving some much needed close combat umph to that first wave... and hopefully tying up any enemy units that could potentially counter-assault my drop force in close combat for a turn or two... while the LS Storms hair off to slag any enemy armor with relative impunity.

Conversely, the scouts are sufficiently well armed that if they came in from reserves (also taking advantage of the scout rule) late in the game... they could displace most enemy units from an objective and snatch a win from the jaws of defeat (Cerberus launchers and the Combi-flamer playing a key role in seeing off the likely numerically superior and entrenched enemy... and the multi-melta making a mockery of any transports that might be shielding them).

Just some thoughts, and I'm eager to hear what people think.

So, I'm tooling up 2 new teams of scouts. I finished with my sneaky fist team, now moving onto a group to go with the hq build, and a more mobile fist concept.

Just want to clarify a few things first.

One nagging rules question. Can A scout sergeant be equipped with a shotgun, and a powerfist? I've figured out how to model this, and it seems to make sense and be supported by the codex. This would eliminate the boltpistol/fist combo, sense the bp doesn't confer a second attack anyway. If so, I'm thinking about this....

Counts as Kahn model, joining a 10 man group of scouts, sergeant with pfist, shotgun, 4 shotgun wielding scouts, 5 closecombat/boltpistol scouts.

I'm not sure in this instance if it would be better to have the sergeant with a powerweapon instead, since he get +1 strength on the charge anyway from the hq. Also, it can be brutal to soak hits prior to the fist's turn.

The second team would be as follows...

ls storm, mmeltas. Carrying a scout squad with the shotgun/pfist sergeant and 2 shotgun 2 ccw scouts.

I'm wondering here, is a power weapon going to be a generally better idea? This time it is because of the small size of the unit, the sergeant might not live long enough to deliver the blow before attrition gets him.

It would be funny to call this a flying fist. (rereading shin's post I missed, it looks like this is similar to what he was saying all the way back in july...)