Shrike infiltrating another IC redux

Nemesis · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:14 pm

NOTE: The purpose of this thread is not necessarily to spark up the old debate that quickly degenerated into a flame war. I simply wanted to share this information with my fellow Raven Guard players here on SoC, so keep that in mind before choosing to reply.

A fellow over on Librarium Online posed this question in the forum's 40k Rules Help forum, and I figured since we had discussed the topic previously I would give it a look and a few posts. The general consensus, including that of one of LO's most knowledged players in the rules, was that Shrike could infiltrate another Independent Character. Here are a few of the quotes:

Quote:

Oh wonderful - a chicken and egg situation!

The way I would interpret it is this: Shrike joins this squad and so does the Chaplain. The squad is irrelevant, as it cannot affect either Shrike or the Chaplain. If the Chaplain joins the squad first, then yes - he becomes a part of that unit as per the IC rules. If Shrike joined *after* him, then Shrike's Chapter Tactics rule would include the Chaplain as he is already considered to be part of the unit Shrike is joining.

If Shrike joins first however, then his Chapter Tactics affect only the squad members present at the time of joining. If the Chaplain now joins this unit, he is an IC without Infiltrate joining a unit *with* it, and according to the rules for the asterisked USR the unit will now lose that Infiltrate ability.

That's my understanding of it anyway. I'll be interested to see what the outcome of this discussion will be as I plan to field Kor'sarro Khan and Shrike together in my White Scars, since according to the fluff they did battle together.

E.

Quote:

I raised the question in my local GW today with one of the staff who is usually pretty good at working with tough rules queries. His musings also included the one about the chicken and egg situation - Chaplain joins first, then he will get Infiltrate because of Shrike's rule etc. Another contention was that these SM Special Characters effectively would supercede everything else purely because of the fact that they are just that: *Special* Characters.

Another point made was that both Shrike and the Chaplain could be joined to the squad before deployment, so everyone is "in at the beginning", so to speak. No 'he joined first' stuff, and Shrike's Infiltrate benefit would therefore be solid for all models including Mr Chaplain.

The main point he made though was that Codex trumps rulebook. The rules about ICs sans Infiltration joining units with Infiltration and what happens is declared in the BRB as a general rule covering all armies' ICs. Shrike's Codex entry which says that he confers Infiltrate on all models in the unit he joins will supercede the BRB's IC rules as "Codex trumps BRB" and Shrike's special rules are found in the Codex and not in the BRB.

I would see this Shrike+Squad+Chaplain unit being able to Infiltrate/Outflank, also be Fearless and be able to re-roll failed to-hit rolls on the turn that the unit charges into CC.

Now that's a lot of abilities in one go, and I'm thinking that there could well be cries of "Uber Powerful", "Powergaming" and "Gorgonzola" if this did occur on the battlefield!

E.

Quote:

I would not consider the Chaplain as "part of the squad" as he is not bought as a unit upgrade.
I see how people could argue both sides, just another one of GW's grey areas that needs an FAQ.

-isitused

Quote:

P.49 BRB lines 3-5 would say otherwise about them not being part of the unit, as would P.48 BRB third bullet point, I'm afraid.

E.

And here is the link to the thread itself: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-rules-help/158953-shrike-infiltrating-another-ic.html

Just thought I'd share, I'm not looking into sparking another thread that will simply degenerate into a flame war. If the consensus had gone the other way I'd still have posted it.

Fhadhq · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:34 pm

A thread with no intend of replies?

I'm sure we ( or at least some of us) are aware of the presented arguments.
So this helps us ...... :?:

Nemesis · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:30 pm

Or, you could read what I wrote.

I have no intention for this thread to follow in the footsteps of the previous thread (i.e., flaming and sarcasm, similar to what you just posted). Feel free to reply if you have something to add to the argument, but I was showing what others on a different forum have stated in relation to the same argument. It's pretty much accepted over on LO by mostly everyone who has posted that Shrike and another IC can infiltrate together just fine, by the letter of the rules.

If you feel you don't have anything additional to say or if you are not interested in what others not on this forum think about the topic, then don't reply. Simple as. I was merely sharing what others thought on the matter, besides the same three people from the previous thread.

White Raven Darkreever · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:13 pm

Good to see what others think about it Nemesis; and that they were likely able to keep things civil in the unavoidable face of disagreement.

I believe isitused put it best, the issue is another one of GW's grey area's that need to be FAQ for the sake of clarity. And to make one side unhappy...

Personally, I don't use Shrike and likely never will; but I'd always allow him to lead a squad with another character joined and infiltrate the lot of them because his rule never really specifies just who can and cannot go in my opinion.

Fhadhq · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:13 pm

Nemesis wrote:

Or, you could read what I wrote.

I have no intention for this thread to follow in the footsteps of the previous thread (i.e., flaming and sarcasm, similar to what you just posted). Feel free to reply if you have something to add to the argument, but I was showing what others on a different forum have stated in relation to the same argument. It's pretty much accepted over on LO by mostly everyone who has posted that Shrike and another IC can infiltrate together just fine, by the letter of the rules.

If you feel you don't have anything additional to say or if you are not interested in what others not on this forum think about the topic, then don't reply. Simple as. I was merely sharing what others thought on the matter, besides the same three people from the previous thread.

1) i doubt not the conclusion on LO.
2) i did read it. Still confused what should be achieved here. Could post several other forums take on the issue too. But Why?
3) Can't see more than 2 peoples replies in your snippets ( hint: sig)
4) accusing me of sarcasm or flaming ?
5) to disagree with Shrikes infiltrate rule is impossible if reading the appropriate rules. But no problem with willfully misreading or ignoring context.

-so go on and post LO threads. Maybe next time just invite us to visit?

Nemesis · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:43 am

Now you're confusing me, Fhad, so we'll leave it at that. If you don't find other people's takes on the rules, and if you don't want to click the link I supplied (which is as close as an invitation as you'll get, since I don't feel like spamming a link to LO everywhere on here), then I don't see any purpose in you replying to this thread in the first place.

Personally, I always find it interesting and useful to see what people not based on a single forum have to say about a topic. You can get a Raven Guard view here; you can get a general rules view from people who play different armies than Raven Guard on another forum like LO or B&C, etc. It's always beneficial, to me, to see what others think. I'm sorry if you don't feel that way.

And yes, DR, it was kept quite civil on LO.

White Raven Darkreever · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:24 am

Looked on Heresy Online for an instance of a similar thread, and came up with this one. Now I do believe that you need to be a member of Heresy in order to view entire threads. Getting a bit of a preview of a thread may entice someone to join after all; so here are a few quotes:

Galahad wrote:

I beg to differ. The infiltration ability is granted to the unit as a whole, which means any attached characters. Just like Feel No Pain from an Apothecary in a command squad.

Any character who joins Shrike's unit is part of his unit and is given infiltrate per shrike's ability. "All models in his squad"
Is an Ic a model? Is it in his squad? Yes and yes.

It would be entirely different if it were just an IC joining, say, a unit of Scouts who already have infiltrate and don;t grant it to anyone. Shrike explicitly grants infiltrate to all models in his squad.
Independent Character (p47 40k 5th)

njfed wrote:

This is another gray area that must be dealt with using house rules.
Shrike grants infiltrate to the unit he joins.
Infiltrate is a USR that is marked as one of those abilities that will be lost if a IC without the ability joins a squad with the ability.

The GW Grand Tournaments, INATFAQ and Warhammer World FAQ play it the way I stated. If you chose to play it differently at local clubs that is up to the players involved.

I doubt this thread is as long as the one on Librarium, unless the thread is only a page long or something, but it still brings up some valid points.

Nemesis · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:25 am

The thread is only a page and a half or so, as there's very few people posting who don't think it's allowed. The general consensus on LO is that it's perfectly legal.

Fhadhq · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:41 pm

Nemesis wrote:

Now you're confusing me, Fhad, so we'll leave it at that. If you don't find other people's takes on the rules, and if you don't want to click the link I supplied (which is as close as an invitation as you'll get, since I don't feel like spamming a link to LO everywhere on here), then I don't see any purpose in you replying to this thread in the first place.

Personally, I always find it interesting and useful to see what people not based on a single forum have to say about a topic. You can get a Raven Guard view here; you can get a general rules view from people who play different armies than Raven Guard on another forum like LO or B&C, etc. It's always beneficial, to me, to see what others think. I'm sorry if you don't feel that way.

And yes, DR, it was kept quite civil on LO.

Try to make fun of me?

You may misread as much you like too, it doesn't matter.

Instead:
Link to some threads on topic.

dakkadakka: infiltrate+shrike

dakkadakka: IC + usr

dakkadakka: shrike + see but remain unseen = poll

I think thats some thoughts about IC / USR / shrike / infiltrate / "see but remain unseen".
And from different people, also with BRB quotes.

PS: DR is right on the need of membership to view entire threads on HO.

Nemesis · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:47 pm

Thanks for posting the links, Fhad. I only frequent SoC and LO, so it's good to see what people think over on other forums, even if they suffer from the same headlock that we do on here.

The BRB does explicitly state that in some cases, the codex WILL override the rulebook, and I think special rules such as Shrike's chapter tactics would overrule what's being stated in the rulebook. It's not really a case of "they have Infiltrate, the other IC doesn't, thus they lose it if the other IC is attached." It's more a case of "nobody has Infiltrate, but if Shrike attaches to them, he grants Infiltrate upon everyone, including models who don't normally have it." That's the way I interpret the rule and thus far, everyone on LO has interpreted it as such. I find it hard to see any other strong interpretations against that, but I recognise that others feel differently.

White Raven Darkreever · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:51 pm

Trying to make fun of you; what are you talking about?

Nemesis puts up this thread to give us all a view from another forum, you come in adding nothing and seemingly not having anything beyond the thread title, he informs you that he has no idea why you posted. And all of that is somehow Nemesis making fun of you?

Now your confusing me as well.

White Raven Jaspercation · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:58 pm

It is good to see others opinions and not trying to be biased i think there's a definite gap between what is RAW (rules as written) and RAI (rules as intended) and i think Fhad has done a good thing by opening the topics on dakkadakka to us, as well as you nemesis for your views and insights.

whilst i don't want to erupt this into another flaming session, i think i've learned from what the two of you have shown and would like to put a few statements to you all

so lets look at the argument
"an independent character when joining a unit does not confer its special abilities to the unit or gain them from the unit it has joined unless SPECIFICALLY stated." pg 48 from the tome of infinite confusion (a.k.a the warhammer 40000 rulebook)

Now does the attached IC gain the special ability through the unit?

Shrike does not have the Infiltrate ability, he has an "upgrade" called "see but remain unseen" and whilst it is never SPECIFICALLY stated it confers this to IC's it isn't SPECIFICALLY stating it does not, saying and i quote "ANY MODELS in his squad" note the use of the word models, and also that all of the minatures in the games workshop range (especially infantry based) are classed at some point as 'models' and thus this classification would be the same for an IC aswell as a tactical marine, thus any model shrike can be attached to can therefore get the upgrade.

as you may all be aware i've been calling 'see but remain unseen' an "upgrade", i've done this because not only does it make it clearer but it is something that by itself does nothing, shrike does not have the infiltrate ability, but through this "upgrade" he does.

As this rule can be unofficially classed as an "upgrade which confers a special rule" is this not, for example the same as liturgies of battle? Liturgies of battle is a ruling that confers a bonus to the unit after a charge, and whilst i note the differences between this and a USR (universal special rule) it states my opinion that an "upgrade that confers something" can be given to the unit as a whole.

The RAW arguments are valid, it does not state IC's are affected (although it is unclear if they aren't) and the rules on pg 48 saying an IC cannot gain a USR from a unit is valid, and would stop you being able to do this.

But

Does shirke and his attached unit ever have infiltrate? its debatable. yes they get the use of infiltrate but shrikes "upgrade" grants them that, the unit itself has nothing to give to another IC attempting to attach itself to it, as proven if shrike were to leave that unit.

this is just a few points i've found whislt reading, and whilst i would like to hear feedback and opposing views can we keep this simple and civilised.

Nemesis · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:27 pm

A very interesting take on the "upgrade" vs. USR classification, Jasper, and a take that I'm not sure is at all wrong, even though as you said it's sort of an "unofficial" classification. Personally, I don't think even RAW supports the claim that Shrike's ability does not work on another Independent Character, for the same reason you have said: the ability is conferred to ANY MODEL in his squad. If the other IC is not a model, then I can see the argument against the ruling, but it seems pretty darn clear to me that the second IC counts not only as a model, but when attached to Shrike it also counts as a model IN HIS SQUAD.

The ruling about the USRs is very specific - if an IC without infiltrate attaches itself to a unit that HAS infiltrate, then the unit may not infiltrate. A similar concept to the "units move as fast as the slowest model" so if you put a non-Jump Pack IC in a squad of Assault Marines, they can still only move 6" (or at least, that's how it worked in 4th edition) instead of the full 12" allowed by the jump pack. Shrike's ability isn't "this squad has infiltrate" per se; the squad does not have infiltrate to start. But the ability grants infiltrate to ANY MODELS in his squad - any, not non-IC or only IC models, any and all models in his squad will get the ability.

You're basically adding something to the squad that they don't have. Just like a Chaplain would make Shrike and the rest of the squad Fearless, so too does Shrike's ability ADD the ability to Infiltrate to the Chaplain and the rest of the squad. Codex overrules BRB, it is stated several times in the BRB itself that this is the case, and this appears to be one of those times where it definitely would.

random aside: I've been using "chapter tactics" when talking about this rule, and I just caught myself so replaced it all with "ability," since this isn't part of Shrike's chapter tactics but instead just the ability in his profile. Oops.

Race Bannon · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:23 pm

Gah, this is nasty. I'll just NOT have an IC with Shrike in a squad, this is to make life simpler.

Thus, Shrike can only ever help and squad on it's own.

Too many chiefs otherwise.

Levitas · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:25 pm

Ah, the ugly one.

Originally I saw it that he could, but considering it was a grey area I would ask my opponent his take. I used it once and it didnt really do much, all my eggs in one basket.

I also emailed John at GW and he gave a definate no. He is by no means the law (yet) but I figure he is in the spirit of the game. Interestingly, he also said that the Librarian power Gate of Infinity allowed units to leave combat.

In the spirit of the game, which is RAI, i'd say no. So as a player that puts sportsmanship above all I dont use it. But agree that there is no clear answer.

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Shrike infiltrating another IC redux

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