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If Shrike had infiltrate and the unit he joined, say an tac-squad didn't, the tac-squad wouldn't get the ability. But as he bestows the ability on the unit he joins then everybody in the unit, including other ICs, would recieve aswel. Just like the chappy does.

Good and fine until someone transfers an USR, what Shrike does.
Any "must have" isn't there when an IC gets to benefit from someone
joining "at the same time or later", since there is no order written by GW,
to assume otherwise.

How would the other IC be part of the unit? He can be joined to the unit - but isn't actually part of it. Just like Shrike is.
Shrike - like all ICs - cannot join more than one unit at a time. So he could join the squad or the Chaplain - but not both.

An IC.
IS part of a unit if he is joined to it in all aspects of the game ( cc, move,ranged combat).

Not all aspects. With respect to USRs there are exceptions - read pages 48 and 75 of the BRB. And specifically with infiltrate - it says he is not.

The "*" denotes that an IC does not bestowe the USR on the unit and vice versa.

But Shrike's bestows his ability of infiltrating, quote: "(to models in his squad)". How can you claim that the infantry are models and another IC isn't, even when reading p48: "Special Rules" and p75 "Infiltrate"? Look at "Models", p3 in the bible. "...an individual playing piece...".

And does a special character's special rule not take precedence over "standard" special rules? Which in this case I don't even believe is the point here as mentioned above.

Obviously this case has enough grey areas, but I agree with you Voloch. Moreover in the games I have played thus far no opponent ever had any objection regarding this deployment. I haven't played in any tournaments though but the rules there are in a way house rules.

Quote BRB:

page 49: " wenn ein unabhängiges charactermodell sich Keiner einheit angeschlossen hat, darf es normal als ziel ausgewählt werden, da es eine
separate einheit darstellt"

So IF an IC is independent, THEN it is a seperate unit. Its not a seperate unit when it is (joined,attached,glued to,unfortunately hangs with these guys around).

Now go search in your BRB

page 49:

"sie ( IC ) müssen jedoch noch immer auf das gleiche ziel schiessen wie die einheit der sie sich angeschlossen haben"

No independent aiming when (joined,attached,glued to,unfortunately hangs with these guys around).

Go search for this too.

page 49:

"wenn eine einheit, der sich ein unabhängiges charactermodell angeschlossen hat, in den nahkampf geht, greift auch das unabhängige charactermodell an,
da es teil der einheit ist."

The (joined,attached,glued to,unfortunately hangs with these guys around) IC IS part of the unit in HtH.

Another one to search for.

page 48:

"solange die beschreibung der sonderregel nichts ANDERES aussagt, überträgt die einheit ihre sonderregeln nicht auf das unabhängige charactermodell
und das unabhängige charctermodell überträgt seine sonderregel nicht auf die einheit"

But shrike special rule does say otherwise......so benefit is given.

You know. search it.

page 48:

"alternativ dürfen sich unabhängige charactermodelle bereits VOR dem spiel einheiten anschliessen, indem sie einfach in formation mit der jeweiligen einheit aufgestellt werden."

Before the game.
Units....

Hope you find it.

page 48:

"unabhängige chartactermodelle dürfen sich anderen einheiten anschliessen,...."

also units.

Easy to spot.

page48:

"solange ein unabhängiges charactermodell teil einer einheit ist, muss es die formationsregeln einhalten."

Need coherency if PART of the UNIT.

So i reread this page as you asked for....maybe try yourself too?

page 75:

I doubt we need to reread this too. Or shall i go quoting my BRB completely?

An Independent Character IS part of the unit if he is (joined,attached,glued to,unfortunately hangs with these guys around).

I never claimed that the other IC is not a model - only that he isn't in the unit - but rather is joined to it. That is a very important distinction that is carefully outlined in the rules.

Yes, Shrike bestows this ability on models "in his squad". ICs are - by definition - INDEPENDENT Characters. Yes, for some rules they are considered part of the squad - but in other cases, the IC is not. With respect to infiltrate, he is not:

"...if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment [underline my emphasis], the unit cannot infiltrate."

BRB page 48.

Shrike has 'infiltrate'. He can bestow it on 'models in his squad' - but as soon as you join the other IC to the unit during deployment - i.e. it doesn't matter whether it is before or after Shrike has joined the unit, it is still during deployment - the unit (including Shrike) loses the ability.

Inflitrate has a "*" next to it (page 75 BRB), we can see its reference on page 74:

"The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independent character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule".

This is reinforced by Shrike's own rules on page 92 of the Codex: "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook). [again, underline is my emphasis.

Shrike has the 'infiltrate' special rule. His special rules allow it to also affect the unit he has joined to - BUT THAT IS ALL IT CAN DO. Shrike can only join one unit at a time. He cannot join the squad and the other IC at the same time. Yes, both ICs may join the same squad - but as clearly pointed out in the quotes above, the 'infiltrate' ability is lost as soon as the second IC is joined to the squad. You could argue the language of "models in his squad" - but what is the most common interpretation of this concept? The squad he has joined.

@Fhadhq: Nice list of quotes you have there - except they have nothing to do with the topic. All of your quotes have absolutely nothing to with 'infiltrate'. This discussion is about 'infiltrate' and what units are affected. it has nothing to do with coherency, shooting or close combat.

Bible, pg 74 top: "As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one if these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence".

IMO, this debate (not nessecarily on this forum) is created by someone who has had their MASTODONT KOALA-BUTTs repeatedly kicked by the Shrike/Chaplain/ASM combo and can't find a way to counter it.

1) Independent characters are only independent when not joined.
you may dilslike what i'am saying, it still doesn't change the BRB on many different pages and paragraphs.
I've thougth its not too hard to understand the BRB when its section about IC is full of "part of the unit", but it seems you need to selective misquote to have a
non-existant point.

Let me reassure you :

If a official Rulebook tells us "IC is part of the unit", then its really less important if this is accepted by everyone.

2) to try to assume that an example of a IC without an USR (as your page 48) does mean anything in a debate about an IC that "transfers" an USR may
be your POV, but I still insist to read in context, not just grab an example and call it a point.

Your example: " ...wenn sich zum beispiel ein unabhängiges charactermodell während der aufstellung einer einheit mit der sonderregel infiltratoren anschliesst, darf diese einheit nicht mehr infiltrieren."

Taking this out of context gets us:

when an IC joins a unit at deployment both loose infiltrate.
Thus Shrike cant infiltrate with a unit ( which is undisputed wrong ), thus a unit cant get infiltrate from shrike ( also undisputed wrong ),
so your point is: shrike cant infiltrate alongside a unit. Just plain nonsense.

You shall not selective quote.

3) there is no order how to join or anything that supports can only join 1 unit a time. Stop making up rules.

How can I be "selectively misquoting" when I am directly quoting the rules specific to infiltrate - while you are quoting the rules for every other circumstance.

I am not the one misquoting.


Being 'selective' is also being clear - so I quote the specifics that apply to the situation. I quoted the rules concerning infiltrate and exactly what happens when you join an IC to the group that does not have it (as the Chaplain does not) - and that this happens DURING DEPLOYMENT - so it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Chaplain to be in/part of/joined to the unit at a different time than Shrike and Shrike's special rules do not specifically allow him to join (and thus convey his abilities to) multiple units.

Yes, you are taking it out of context and yes it is nonsense - you'll get no arguement from me, there.


Now that is out-and-out insulting. I have made nothing up - anyone can read the quotes for themselves. I suggest you do the same.

It is you who are making up rules like "nothing keeps an IC from joining multiple units at a time" and that "ICs are in a unit for all aspects" when the rules clearly state otherwise.

We all need to calm down here, or this thread shall be locked.

I don't understand why you are trying so hard to argue against characters being part of a unit if they join one.

Consider this:
p. 48 top paragraph, last sentence: "They can join other independant characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!".
Does your reasoning tell you that when ICs join other ICs they are a unit but when they join squads they are not?

Joining a unit means they must follow coherency, movement restrictions, targeting etc, as explained on p48. In my world, that is the same as being part of.

I would like you consider this also, from p47, "Moving Independant Characters": "All ICs have the 'move through cover' and 'skilled rider' special rules."
The "move through cover" USR is lost if he is joining a unit which hasn't, as that is not bestowed on the unit, unlike Shrike's ablity which is (I'm not gonna quote anymore).

In the very next paragraph it aslo states that when an IC is within 2" of two or more units "the player must declare which unit it is joining" - clearly indicating that Shrke may not join the squad and the other IC at the same time.

Now both ICs may join the same unit (and any number of other ICs as well), but if this happens, then the asterisk (*) for 'infiltrate' kicks in and the whole unit loses the ability to infiltrate.



But does that mean they are "in the squad"? It doesn't say. But he would have to already be joined to the squad for that to happen, right?

Well, that can't happen - because all ICs join their respective squads at the same time: during deployment, so it is impossible for the other IC to be "in the squad" at the time Shrike joins it and bestows his ability.


Yes, Shrikes version of infiltrate has one unique quality (but otherwise follows all of the standard rules associated with infiltrate) - that quality is that he can bestow that ability to "models in his squad". What does that mean? Again, we look at the rules associated with ICs - they may join another unit and if there is more than one unit present, then the player must decide which unit the IC joins.

So we have Shrike, the squad and the other IC (remember, the other IC cannot join the squad before Shrike - at the same time is the best he can do) ready to deploy. Shrike must decide which unit he joins (and confers his ability to) at this time. If the Chaplain joins at the same time, then (because of the "*") the whole unit cannot infiltrate.

Does that make it clear?