sonsofcorax.freeforums.org

Your second home you quote a lot nowadays?


But:

you CAN leave CC. Some units do this.

-Kor'sarro
-seraphim
-one type of assassin ( should look )
-necrons
-every vehicle without an WS since they are never in CC (but i would debate if you can lock an Imperator titan as standard sized creature )

So "moving" is possible.

Maybe the "counts as" is the problem. Why must it "counts as" ?
A psi-power could be similar in use as the teleporter. I doubt you can stop a successful cast psi-power other than using nullzones or hoods.
Gate has already a "no assault-restriction", comes with additional risk and needs a psi-test. I think this is enough to ensure balance.

Plus our GW (germany) said yes now we can start regional 40k, where everyone fields his own specific set of rules.

Well, that forum is from my last store in Orlando. They are a competitive bunch and tend to push the rules. I hover around there quite a bit and learn a lot. But SoC is my first home

I say you can gate out, but expect GW to sort this one out at some point as I suspect they have had a lot of questions about it.

As for Shrike and a 2nd infiltratring IC it's a clear(ish) no.

clear?
those poll i've provided says 40% shrike + IC + unit, 40% shrike + unit. So looks like 50/50.
A lot of non-marine players voted pro shrike, so maybe not all is lost in 40k.

We'll see what happens with those massive IG special rules. More debates ?

Clearish how, and by whom? An ambiguous GW employee? A couple of guys on a forum? Based on the same arguments and points being made by both sides, it clearly is not a clear no, even if you add the ish, as Fhad said. Look, him and I are even agreeing on something!

On forum A, they could believe one thing. On forum B, the consensus might be the other. And yet on forum C, you could have people in both departments saying one or the other. That's the exact case we're in right here; there is no clear answer, merely how we are interpreting the rules and how our opponents/tournament organisers choose to allow us to play. In the end, it's a dice roll to settle a disagreement, without the publication of an official FAQ.

Screw it. i'm taking up chess...

I'm going by the ambiguous GW employee, but will still discuss the rule with my club etc.

Maybe we will get the mother of all FAQs with a big official sticker on to put right all the greay areas.

maybe...

haha so if you start posting pics of painted pawns we'll know why

at least you'll truely be able to p'wn people! booom booom



oh god i don't know how i do it either kids

oh and not to be completely off topic, its in my experience, 2-1 for shrike not being able to although a few are undecided.

i'm off to chop a rainforest down to prepare for the mother of all FAQ's

hahahah

i don't know why i found that so funny but i definitely laughed hard

ok hows this then. two ic's can join together to form a squad(small one) so shrike gives or looses the see but remain unseen ability.? who has joined who. its in how you construct it as in this threads original post.

but also for me its all a question of rank. the chaplin/librarian joins the unit, shrike joins the unit, as the ranking ic it is now "his" unit
he confers this ability outside and above the normal restrictions on transmutable abilities.
true it might not be as gw intended but do you think gw thought about twin lash 9 oblit lists when the chaos dex was writen or ork nobz having the same number of attacks as a chaptermaster!

a lot of things have not been clearly thought out or explained. gate is ambiguous in its limitations or lack of and so it would seem is the inclusion of 2nd ic to shrikes unit

and yes when the new guard dex hit the streets it will probably be awesome, though full of anomalies, gray areas and misinterpratations

what can i say, they got to keep us spending

The biggest flaw I see to the arguement that the second IC may also benefit is in the erronious logic that he can join the squad before Shrike does.

Until someone can point out an initative order or something like it that applies before deployment - when the decision is made to join the ICs to the units - it is impossible for the other IC to join the squad (and therefore be "in" the squad when Shrike joins it) before Shrike does. It simply cannot happen!

The decision for ICs to join units and when they actually join them is - effectively - simultanious. So the second IC cannot already be part of the Squad when the decision is made to have Shrike join it. It all happens at the same time - before the first turn of the game.

The next biggest flaw to the arguement is "...models in the squad...". Does the other IC actually count as being "in" the squad....or "attached" to it? For some purposes - yes, he is "in" the squad (like shooting) - but for other rules (like close combat), he is not.

So which is it in this case? When it comes to special rules like Infiltrate, he is not. That is specifically noted in the BRB. While it is Shrike's "special rule" and could be considered an "upgrade", it still refers to the rules for USRs in the BRB and so the restriction against other ICs would still apply because Shrike's rules do not specifically state that it doesn't. His special rules allow him to confer the ability on one unit...and one unit only.

Not specifically stating that the rule doesn't apply to other ICs is also a flawed arguement. "Permission by omission" cannot be used as a logical conclusion. There are an infinite number of things the rules in the BRB and all of the supplements and Codices don not specifically say you cannot do. That is irrelevant. What is important is what the rules say you can do.

These are the most compelling reasons why I see it as the second IC cannot reap the benefits. I'm not trying to be evil or rain on anyone's parade here - I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm not trying to twist or distort the rules to a specific advantage or disadvantage. I'm just reading the rules without trying to read into them.

Sadly I'm going with some anonymous GW employee on the grounds that multiple people from multiple places around the world have asked the question and all gotten a No.

I find it funny how passionate people get about these questions

Another post from LO, by Wicky:



My initial response upon reading this was a simple "finally, a new angle on the whole thing." Basically what he's saying here is that every infantry unit in the codex has "squad" in its title; this isn't technically a rule per se, and various codices as well as the rulebook tend to use "squad" and "unit" interchangeably, but it is a very interesting angle to take.

So when Shrike's rule states that "his squad" benefits, then that unit must be a "squad" from the codex; i.e., squad in its name. Of course, this doesn't really work very well if you attach Shrike to units from other codices that don't have the word "squad" in them, because it's clear that they can use the rule.

Still, it's an interesting angle and I'm going to (hesitantly) see the other side on this one. The previous arguments haven't been very conclusive or stronger proof than the "for" arguments, but this idea gets me thinking in a different way so I can see the other side.

Maybe people clinge too much to words.
So "squad" shall disallow an IC ? Could be if you define "his squad" as 1x choice of the FOC,with squad either as name or type.

But "squad" doesnt exist as "type" for any choice in my codex SM. Would be interesting where you get the "squad" thing from.
The end of the name perhaps? => Tactical "squad", => terminator "squad", and so on...?
Choices in codex SM are still "units", not squads.

So ok, not impossible to read it that way.

But:

Squad is not a game term.
Look at page 3 BRB / units.
Anything , called squad or team or mob is a unit. So unit is the game term. BRB also needs to be compatible with any codex and cannot care to
have squad in its rules especially for Sm. Other factions would moan why they dont get the same treatment.

Basing the argument on squad falls apart really fast.

Therfore page 48 BRB mentions units as term for joining IC's.

Shrike still has "all models of his squad" as qualifier, so maybe:

-only the original bougth from 1 FOC slot unit is "his squad", IC's are seperate units and not part of the squad.
-"his squad" is composed of 2 units, because both are part of the squad.
-"all models" means attached units are included, squad beeing just a different description of a unit of space marines.


Still, attached ICs are part of the unit, doesn't ever mention squad in BRB.
The USR's are also used by units ,not squads.

quick sidenote: would shrike benefit from a chaplains litanies of battle?

Of course ‘squad’ is not a term found inside the rules book but it definitely lives with the Space Marines Codex and is quoted many, many times.

The point with the wording is the transference of special abilities and just consider the tone of these entries -

Kor’sarro Khan’s wording is ‘his’ unit.
Darnath Lysander’s wording is a squad that ‘he’ has joined.
Kayvaan Shrike’s wording is models in ‘his’ squad.

All these definitions denote ownership to another group and although another IC can indeed join that squad, it’s not being done through any mechanism provided by the original IC.

But it looks like this one is going to have to be FAQed to be really solved though.

Not claiming a 2nd IC is not part of the squad Shrike has joined is like saying that a chappy's "Liturgies" and "Honour of the Chapter" aren't confered to Shrike because he is an IC and not a member. So you would have Shrike roll for moral and not the rest of the squad if you are faced with the mother of all demons?

Chaplain: "Everyone but Shrike, stand firm and deliver the Emperor's Holy Wrath!".

Shrike: "Brother-chaplain, take this canteen and go put out the fire while the rest of us put on some camo-paint and discuss how we undetected can get closer to the enemy. We leave when the fire is out."

If you join, you are a member and reap the benefits, if you leave you are no longer a member and must live and die without the benefits.

Maybe I'm too casual but I really can't see the problem, unless you are facing and opponent with a Shrike/Chappy/ASM combo and are owned and a bad loser. Then I can understand why you want to go anal on then bible.

As Shrike would be attached to a fearless unit - he would also reap the benefits - this is supported by the rules about IC joining squads that are fearless.

However, the same cannot be said for infiltrate - in both sections. If another IC attempts to join the infiltrating squad (that does not already have infiltrate), then the ability is lost.