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Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Introduction

This is as close to a comprehensive article detailing the history and organization of the Raven Guard as I have been able to compile. There is sadly just not that much information on what is in my opinion one of the coolest Space Marine Chapters GW has created. Some find the chapter too one note and cheesy, but personally the Raven Guard are one of my all time favorites. So for those of you who share my interest in the Angels of Deliverance, or those who just want to know more about the Raven Guard, I hope this article proves interesting and informative.

The Origins of the Raven Guard

The early history of the 19th Legion, particularly where the Primarch Corax is concerned, is shrouded in a great deal of mystery. It may well be that time and war have simply destroyed or lost much of the documentation of the time period, however whatever the reason the accounts on the early life of Corax and the early history of his exploits and those of the Raven Guard are few and far between.

To begin with the pale skinned infant Primarch Corax landed on Lycaeus, the mineral rich satellite of the planet Kiavahr. Kiavahr is a technologically advanced world, covered in factories and machine shops of all shapes and sizes, and the mineral rich moon provides the planet with the raw materials, as well as a handy place to dump exiles and criminals. The moon was quite simply a massive penal facility, where the criminals of Kiavahr, or really anyone who displeased the decadent rulers of the planet, were sent to work the mineral mines of the moon. The conditions were terrible and the oppression of the workers was immense. The overseers of Lycaeus were heavily armed and cruel, watching over the slaves from a massive fortress spire. The prisoner slaves could do little about their fate; that is until Corax came to the rescue, to deliver the downtrodden to their salvation.

The tales about the discovery of Corax are many, what the truth is will probably never be known, some tales tell of a fiery comet, others of a dying warrior giant delivering a babe, yet another talks of a massive cave in revealing the child, whatever really happened, the result was that the slaves hid the black haired, pale skinned child from their overseers. They named the child Corax, which translates roughly to “the Deliverer” and if names are prophetic, that one certainly is. For Corax absorbed anything and everything the exiles could teach him, their varied backgrounds granting the young Primarch knowledge on many aspects of leadership and war, including urban combat, demolitions and much more. Within a few years Corax had matured into a strong and keenly intelligent man and the exiles rejoiced seeing the Primarch as an omen of good fortune, perhaps heralding their freedom.

As the years wore on Corax began to put plans into motion, stockpiles of weapons were placed at key strategic points, squads of trained slaves were organized, resources were prepared and Corax began a campaign of attacks and riots that sapped the moral and resources of the guards. Finally when the situation on Lycaeus had built to the brink of explosion Corax struck. Mining machines and equipment were turned on the jailors, power lines were cut, habitation domes were vented into space, and an elite team of killers lead by Corax himself infiltrated the spire and in a single night of fighting captured it. After centuries of oppression not a single jailor was spared and every last prisoner was executed.

Kiavahr was of course shocked at the fall of Lycaeus and immediately dispatched troops to quell the uprising. However with the advantage of being in the gravity well of the planet, Corax and his warriors launched cargo containers packed with crude atomic explosives at the industrial centers of Kiavahr. In short order the Tech-Guilds, starved of raw materials and with their infrastructure falling apart, began to fight amongst themselves for the few remaining resources. Even when troops from Kiavahr landed on Lycaeus they were out fought at every turn. Within a short period of time the economy and infrastructure of Kiavahr was in utter ruin and the short but brutal war came to an abrupt end as the Tech-Guilds of Kiavahr became simply incapable of continuing the fight, too busy combating each other for the limited remaining resources left on the planet.

The slaves renamed the moon Deliverance, in honor of Corax and all that he had done for them and the celebrations lasted many days. It was during these celebrations that the Emperor arrived to be reunited with his lost son. While the details of this momentous event go largely unrecorded, what the Librarians of the Raven Guard record is that when the Emperor descended to the surface of Deliverance he was met by the waiting Corax. For a day and a night the Emperor and Corax spoke though none know of what, the following day Corax took command of the 19th Legion of the Adeptus Astartes, on the condition that the Emperor help him bring peace to the planet of Kiavahr. Through force of arms the remaining Tech-Guilds were destroyed utterly and the Adeptus Ministorum took their place. In time Kiavahr was rebuilt with the guidance of the Imperium and mineral production resumed on Deliverance under a much improved and just regime. The Raven Guard took the massive spire citadel as their home, renaming it the Ravenspire.

The Great Crusade

During the Great Crusade the Raven Guard made a legendary reputation. Corax’s ability to examine the structure of a planet, and then apply military pressure precisely where required to topple the leadership or cripple the military. The Legion became peerless in infiltration, sabotage and covert operations. So legendary became the skills of the Raven Guard that Horus himself called upon their aid many a time. However the records of the Raven Guard are surprisingly few on these events. Historians theorize that the taciturn Corax was not at all pleased by the boastful and manipulative politics of Horus. One account however asserts that the two Primarchs and their Legions almost came to outright bloodshed, and would have had Corax not departed with his Legion. The next time The Raven Guard and the Luna Wolves would meet would be on the blood soaked plains of Istvaan V.

The Horus Heresy

The assault on Istvaan V is as legendary as it is terrible. For the event is known as the “Drop Site Massacre” with good reason. The Raven Guard, Salamanders and the Veterans of the Iron Hands deployed in force to destroy Horus and his rebellion. With four Legions close behind them to support the effort the loyalists believed Horus would be crushed outright. However while Corax remained largely impassive and calm, and Vulkan remained in control, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands would not be contained. When the assault began the Iron Hands surged to the attack with the Salamanders and Raven Guard forging up the flanks. The assault was costly and appeared to be succeeding when the reserve Legions arrived. When the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers arrived and set up a fortified camp at the drop site the Salamanders and Raven Guard began to fall back to recover and regroup, but the Iron Hands would not fall back. As the Raven Guard and Salamanders reached the camp they were fired upon and the slaughter was horrendous, unprepared for the treachery of those they thought brothers in arms, the Raven Guard and Salamanders were cut to shreds and precious few escaped the killing fields. The Iron Hands were apparently killed to a man, Ferrus Mannus himself beheaded by the traitor Primarch Fulgrim.

Corax and the few survivors of Istvaan V returned to Deliverance. In the Ravenspire Corax brooded, desperately seeking a way to rebuild his legion, for the Imperium was on the brink of annihilation and the loyal warriors of the Adeptus Astartes were desperately needed, but the Raven Guard had none to supply. Delving into ancient lore, dating back to the advanced genetic processes used to create the first enhanced warriors that pacified Terra, Corax found ways to accelerate the creation of Space Marines and produce them at an astonishing rate. However the processes were also extremely dangerous and warned that terrible monsters could result. Nevertheless Corax was out of options and desperate to rebuild his forces. With a heavy heart Corax gave the order to the Apothecaries.

The records of the first creations of the Apothecaries are sealed with oaths and sigils of immense power and none will speak of them, not the Raven Guard, nor any of their successors. The later creations are shrouded in mystery as well. The Raven Guard became very taciturn and isolationist during that period, fighting alone and invisibly, and few accounts from those times exist. One such tale is recorded by the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves. Unable to breach the walls of an Iron Warriors fortification after many attempts a force of monsters herded into battle by the black armored warriors of the Raven Guard smashed through the enemy, shattering the defenses in one charge and slaughtering all inside. At the battle’s conclusion the monsters and their tenders disappeared. Barely one in a hundred of the Apothecaries creations was stable enough to become a Space Marine, the rest were twisted almost beyond recognition, drooling, insane monstrosities. Nevertheless there is really no proof, and the Space Wolves did not report their brethren’s use of forbidden technologies either, perhaps because of the Space Wolves experiences with the Curse of the Wulfen they were more sympathetic to the Raven Guard.

As the years passed and the fires of war continued to burn across the galaxy, the Raven Guard slowly rebuilt, their skills in covert warfare and black ops allowing them to offset their lack of resources. Yet it was almost a century before the Raven Guard could deploy in any significant numbers. Nevertheless the cost was shockingly high, the Ravenspire was filled with the cries of the Apothecaries abominations that filled the dungeons of the Ravenspire.

Corax decreed that the knowledge of what the Raven Guard had paid to survive should never be known, and he personally delivered the Emperor’s Peace to every last one of the abominations.

Post-Heresy

Following the Horus Heresy Corax accepted without complaint the edicts of the Codex Astartes, and the Raven Guard was split into three additional chapters, the Revilers, the Black Guard, and the Raptors.

However the fate of Corax is much more uncertain. Following the split of the legion he locked himself in the highest room of the Ravenspire for a year to the day, praying for forgiveness from the Emperor for his actions. When he finally emerged he was wild eyed and he departed on a course for the Eye of Terror that very night. The only word he gave as explanation was “Nevermore…” and nothing more. The tragic Primarch has never been seen or heard from again.

Homeworld

The official Fortress Monastery of the Raven Guard is the Ravenspire on Deliverance. However together the moon Deliverance and the planet Kiavahr produce almost enough munitions and machines to equal the production capacity of a Forge World, and in addition the quality of the weapons and war machines produced by the forges of Kiavahr are of the highest craftsmanship. However due to centuries of pollution the atmosphere of the planet is extremely polluted and cases of mutation are significantly higher than normal. While this stretches the tolerance of Imperial authorities the quantity and quality of the arms and munitions produced by the planet buys more leeway than would normally be the case, and being the homeworld of the Raven Guard doesn’t hurt either.

The Raven Guard themselves are slightly unusual in that they do mingle with the population of Deliverance and Kiavahr and are close to the people that serve them. The Chapter draws many recruits from the billions of inhabitants and are held in the highest regard by them.

Combat Doctrine

"Knowing where to land your blow, so that it achieves the greatest damage with the minimum force, is the key to victory in war."
Instructor Sergeant Alenpo, 4th Company
-Index Astartes: Raven Guard

The above quote represents the combat doctrine of the Raven Guard perfectly. Covert warfare and guerilla tactics are well known to the Raven Guard. The very skills that made them legendary during the Great Crusade, and allowed them to survive the fires of the Horus Heresy now make up the greater part of the chapter’s combat doctrine. While the Raven Guard are fully capable of deploying in force when necessary, recruitment is still slow and dangerous and as such the chapter still relies on sabotage and stealth to a large extent. Captain Kayvaan Shrike is the pure embodiment of these tactics and his campaign against the Orks of Targus VIII has become legendary.

The Raven Guard adhere closely to the dictates of the Codex Astartes, however they rely on independently operating scout squads quite heavily and their Dreadnaughts tend to deploy via Drop Pod very often.

Organisation

While the Raven Guard organize along the guidelines of the Codex Astartes, their application of this is subtly different. Following the Istvaan V Massacre the Legion just did not have the resources to re-equip properly and had to make due with older arms and armor. Because of this even in modern times the Raven Guard include a significantly higher number of ancient suits than most chapters and the individuals that are lucky enough to be gifted with these suits view themselves as blessed by the Primarch.

In addition to their armor, the Raven Guard are famed for their ease of deployment, as often the chapter will deploy in Drop Pods or be generally mobile, the fighting forces of the Raven Guard can quickly assess and adapt to a rapidly changing battlefield.

Squad level tactics and rapid deployment are aspects of the Raven Guard that are studied closely by other Chapters and which have even worked their way into the doctrines of other Astartes Chapters. Sharing experience and knowledge is not necessarily uncommon, but the extent to which the Raven Guard’s skill in these areas is acknowledged is impressive.

The Codex does not dictate the size or disposition of the Scout Company however and some theories persist that the Raven Guard may make use of significantly more scout squads, or organize them differently than many other Chapters. However if such actions are the case they are perfectly legitimate along the dictates of the Codex Astartes and would not be that unusual and as such are not really mentioned. But some argue that the reliance on scouts by the Raven Guard would lead to an increased number of them.

Color Scheme

These are a few examples of the Raven Guard color scheme for the 3rd Company, however the Chapter has no specified markings save the color of the right shoulder pad's trim as shown below for each squad type. For squad and company markings and officers each player can customize their scheme as they see fit.

Assault Marine- 3rd Company, 2nd Assault Squad


Tactical Marine- 3rd Company, 1st Tactical Squad


Devastator Marine- 3rd Company, 1st Devastator Squad


Veteran- 1st Company, 2nd Veteran Squad


Captain- 3rd Company


Beliefs

The Raven Guard do not venerate the Emperor with the fervor or zeal of many other Astartes Chapters, viewing him as a distant figure, the master of the galaxy and the founder of the Imperium but little more. Corax is viewed as a mighty leader capable of making tough decisions when the need was great.

The Raven Guard still follow the path that Corax set for them, reviewing the data collected from each battle to learn it’s lessons and a great deal of the tactical doctrines of the Raven Guard were learned and laid out from such examinations.

As for the leaders of the Raven Guard, they emphasis initiative and tactical skill as much or more so than personal martial prowess. The Raven Guard are much more likely to use a swift surgical strike, than to engage in long protracted battles. However this tendency causes some tension with other Astartes Chapters who the Raven Guard consider blunt and clumsy, such as the Blood Angels.

Gene-Seed

The genetic material of the Raven Guard was greatly damaged by the accelerated processes utilized following the Istvaan V Massacre. Much of the gene-stocks of the Raven Guard were lost or irreparably damaged and as such a significant portion of the Chapter’s genetic material comes from Terra. Additionally the process of transformation into a marine is notably higher in the Raven Guard and many casualties early in training only add to the slow and limited recruitment process of the Chapter. Even further degeneration in the gene-seed has caused several of the implants to fail, the Betcher’s Gland and Mucranoid no longer exist within the gene-seed of the Raven Guard, and other defects cause recruits to over time have their skin become paler until it is as white as their Primarch’s, and the eyes and hair of the Astartes will eventually become a deep black.

Battle-cry

The Raven Guard do not make use of a battle-cry, perhaps because of their emphasis on covert warfare. Instead the chapter makes use of the motto “Victorus aut Mortis” which translates simply to “Victory or Death.”

Famous Engagements

The Hunt for Voldorius
-Honoured Kyublai, the Great Khan of the White Scars announced during the feast celebrating his ascension that he intended to bring justice to one of the Chapter's greatest foes, the foul Daemon Prince Kernax Voldorius, a war leader of the renegade Alpha Legion. To accomplish this, the 51st Master of the Hunt, Kor'sarro Khan and his 3rd Brotherhood was despatched to bring back the head of the foul daemon, or not at all.

For more than a decade Kor'sarro and his warriors tracked Voldorius, as the warriors of the White Scars fought their way across Zoran, Kavell and Modanna chance always allowed Voldorius to escape. Finally Kor'sarro and his company found themselves on Quintus, a desolate rock to the galactic south of Chogoris. Before the coming of Voldorius, Quintus had been a bulwark against the Orks of the Jagal Stars. The daemon prince's warriors had infiltrated the military of Quintus and when the White Scars arrived they found not just the warband of the Alpha Legion, but a whole planet of soldiers ready to face them.

Kor'sarro would not be deterred however and leaving his Strike Cruiser in the outer system, the Master of the Hunt and his warriors approached the planet stealthily via Thunderhawks and made their way through the planetary defence grid and landed in the blasted canyons to the south-west of the capitol. Despite their stealthy approach there are others more adept at such things than the White Scars and upon their arrival they were met by none other than Captain Kayvaan Shrike and the Raven Guard 3rd Company. For millenia the relationship between the White Scars and the Raven Guard had been strained. But the forces arrayed against them were too much for either force to deal with single handedly. Their hands forced by the situation the two Captains and their commands worked together.

The following morning Shrike and his company led a dawn strike against an orbital defence battery to the west of Mankarra. Even before the complex was fully taken the Raven Guard were preparing to defend it as fully half of the Alpha Legion warband and much of Mankarra's garrison roared towards them as reinforcements. Outnumbered badly and stretched thin the Raven Guard held their ground with stoic determination, forced ever so slowly to give ground. Despite a counter-attack by Shadow Captain Shrike the traitors continued to force the Raven Guard back. But this was all according to plan, for the White Scars had secreted themselves in caves to the south and the moment the traitors were overcommitted the White Scars pounced. Roaring down on their foes on their space marine bikes the White Scars smashed aside all resistance. Within moments the traitor Baneblade the Ironsoul was crippled, its sponsons destroyed and crew slaughtered. With the loss of their largest war machine the backbone of the traitors broke and they were slaughtered piecemeal by the Raven Guard and White Scars.

Despite the formidable defences of Mankarra, Voldorius had not bothered to spend much time on repair or maintanence. The Raven Guard Thunderhawks and the White Scars Vindicator the Thunderheart were able to blast a sizeable hole in the curtain wall with little trouble and before the defenders could react the White Scars were loose in the city streets. Staying mobile the White Scars roared along roads and alleys, striking wherever they were least expected and slaughtering every traitor without mercy. Meanwhile the Raven Guard deployed from their Thunderhawks on the rooftops and beset their foes from above. Caught from multiple angles the defenders were butchered.

Finally only Voldorius and his bodyguard remained, trapped and outnumbered in the shadow of the Cathedral of the Emperor's Wisdom. Though many fell to the foul daemon prince the outcome was never in doubt. At last Voldorius was broken and pinned to the fallen statue of the Emperor by Shrike's Talons. With one sweep Kor'sarro cut the head from Voldorius shoulders and the battle was over.

A month later with the planet in the hands of Imperial Guard from Tallarn the Space Marines departed. Shrike returned to the Targus battlezone and Kor'sarro returned to Chogoris with Voldorius' head. Each Captain took with him a newfound respect for the other and the relationship between the estranged brother Chapters took its first step towards healing.

The Istvaan V Massacre
-Noted as one of the most devastating defeats in the history of the Adeptus Astartes, and certainly in the history of the Raven Guard, the battle nearly saw the Salamanders and the Raven Guard utterly annihilated and only the quick thinking and initiative of the Raven Guard allowed a bare few to escape that dreadful day.

Targus VIII
-Captain Shrike and an elite team of infiltrators found themselves cut off behind the lines of the Ork’s when their pickup Thunderhawk was shot down. For more than two years Shrike and his marines fought a guerilla war deep in Ork held territory, stealing supplies and munitions, sabotaging Ork installations, ambushing and slaughtering the greenskins whenever they could, as well as relaying vital intelligence to the Imperium’s forces fighting in the campaign. Shrike’s actions brought the campaign to a successful conclusion decades earlier than predicted and earning the legendary captain the Laurel Imperialis.

Nimbosa
-The planet of Nimbosa is a hotly contested world on the Eastern Fringe, where the Tau Empire and the Imperium have clashed on numerous occasions. Chapters such as the Imperial Fists, Black Templars and Ultramarines are all reputed to have fought the Tau on the planet at one time or another and the world has changed hands many times. The Raven Guard 3rd Company under the command of Shrike assaulted the Tau positions on the planet and forced the xenos to retreat sometime during the Campaign, though the current status of the planet is unknown, it is believed to still be contested.

Famous Characters

Captain Kayvaan Shrike
-Captain of the 3rd Company, Shrike is a legendary figure in the Imperium for his many stunning victories throughout his career, emphasizing the very qualities at the core of the Raven Guard’s combat doctrine with honor and prowess. Shrike also wields “The Raven’s Talons” a pair of Master-Crafted Lightning Claws, said to have been forged by Corax himself following the Istvaan V Massacre, and are reputed to be unbreakable.

After his success at Targus VII Shrike went on to assault the Orks in the Donara and Yahkhee systems. By the time he had finished there Shrike had become nothing short of a savior and a legend to the beleaguered and hopeless.

Shrike now leads his company across the regions under assault by Waaaagh! Skullkrak. Not to aid the desperate Imperial commanders struggling to contain the Ork threat, but to the worlds abandoned by the overstretched and uncaring Imperial commanders. On those worlds Shrike and his Company are revered as heroes as great as those of old. On every world struggling against the Ork horde, Guardsmen clutch their weapons tighter knowing that Shadow Captain Shrike and the Raven Guard 3rd Company may be on their way and the Orks glance twice at every shadow, wondering if the Space Marines are there, just waiting to strike.

Wherever you tread, tread lightly. We are closer than you think, and our blades are sharp."
-Captain Kayvaan Shrike, Raven Guard 3rd Company.

We are coming. Look to the skies for your salvation."
-Captain Kayvaan Shrike to Commissar Lent prior to the Blindhope Planetstrike.

We go where we wilt. We slay who we wilt. Let the Emperor judge the righteiousness of our deeds."
-Sergeant D'Kestrel, Raven Guard 1st Company.

Captain Aajz Solari
-Captain of the Raven Guard 2nd Company, Solari is famous as a very erratic but mostly successful officer, often going into battle at the head of the Assault Marines. Few Astartes better exemplify the image of the Angels of Death descending on fiery wings of flame to deliver the Emperor’s wrath to the foes of the Imperium.

Concluding Thoughts

The material on the Raven Guard is really rather slim, despite the history (and in my mind coolness) of the chapter, little has been written about them. Even the Iron Hands have had more works published on them than the Raven Guard, which is in my opinion a tragedy, nevertheless that does not diminish the character or style of the Raven Guard, who are I think among the most interesting chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. I hope this article has provided some insight into the history and organization of the Raven Guard, and those who read it have both enjoyed the experience and learned something.

References

Index Astartes: Raven Guard
Codex: Space Marines 4th Edition & 5th Edition
Fulgrim

Very Well Done Vash.

It's good to have the comprehensive history finally up on SoC.

Yet another epic read! Very well written and good detail. I'm highly impressed there my friend.

CR

Awesome work, thanks for clearing up a bunch of my questions. I found the paint schemes most informative as well.

Most of this is readily accessible on Lexicanum if you search Raven Guard, Corax, Deliverance, etc. as well if you have access to the Index Astartes article on the Raven Guard.

Convenient for those who don't have the IA article or who don't know Lexicanum, however. Good post.

I'm glad I could be of some service.



Thank you, I'm glad my work is enjoyed.



While relatively simple the Raven Guard paint scheme is little known and immensely confused thanks to the poor research done by GW's Eavy Metal team, I'm always pleased when my work is able to provide the proper information for those who seek it.



Actually when I first wrote this most of the information was not on Lexicanum plus as a wiki the information on Lexicanum is not really always accurate or trustworthy, plus there isn't that much on Lexicanum anyway.

Thanks for belittling my effort though.

You know, even when I compliment your post, you're seeking a way to argue with me. Fair enough, though. I suppose your article here is far more reliable than wikis, which are written by people - similar to yourself - using the sources you've listed as your own. Good call.

I'm not seeking to argue with you but it's very off putting to have the article so lightly brushed off as mostly irrelevant without basis and then adding "good post" to the end doesn't negate the sting. But thanks, cause that kind of attitude is obviously constructive and condusive to more contribution.

If that was supposed to be a compliment it certainly doesn't seem like it.

Since the information is so readily available I guess I shouldn't have bothered spending the days writing, editing, compiling and researching it took to produce something like this...

While I am not attempting to belittle your effort - indeed, it should be a very helpful post for people unfamiliar with Raven Guard fluff - it is not a lie that the information presented here, or at least most of it, is pretty commonly available with an hour or so with Google. It's convenient to have it all in one place, which I also stated in my original post (not just the 'Good post' part was giving you credit), but that doesn't change the fact that this, like most fluff information (at least, when there's so little as what there is on Raven Guard), is relatively easy to find with a couple of sources.

I think it's a good post to have, especially on a Raven Guard forum, and it will definitely help those newer to Raven Guard who don't know where to look for the fluff. My apologies if you think this is belittling your post, regardless of my obvious commendations.

Fair enough I suppose, mayhaps I'm over-reacting though your first post did come off as belittling.

Regardless though the problem with a wikipedia is that anyone can edit the articles whether they know what they're talking about or not. I could right now go to wikipedia and change an article on WWII to say Hitler won if I wanted too, with the Raven Guard a lack of seriously conflicting information helps but on more complicated subjects differing opinions can mean that a biased writer can easily just erase differing opinions and it becomes a battle of who bothers to edit the given article the most, not counting the fact that the Lexicanium's information is singularly simplified and lacking in comprehensive coverage or detail.

Now if the actual IA was available online (legally that is) that would be preferable though there are other sources of information included as well.

The sources are all the same as there aren't that many to choose from, on the other hand the Lexicanium articles are like I said pretty thin on detail. That said "may not" so what you think I plagiarised?

So like I said this sort of article takes an incredible ammount of time to research and wright and it's very belittling and disconcerting to just say the information can be found elsewhere. If the info is so easy to find then I guess I shouldn't have bothered.

If it's such a big deal I could always remove it and be done with it.

See that's just insulting and putting doubt on my credibility and honesty. An honest opinion I can respect, a post that suggests my work is at best unnecessary and at worst stollen, no that's insulting and I have every reason to be miffed if not outright angered by that sort of nonsense.

You say your not jumping to that conclusion and yet that's exactly what the wording of your post suggests.

If this is how I'm going to be treated for trying to be helpfull and constructive and share my work here then why should I bother huh? Tell me that.

If you can point out exactly where any of us say that at best your work is not needed, then please do. Thus far you have Nemesis pointing out that most of this information can be found elsewhere, and you have me saying that what you have written and whats out there are similar. (Big surprise, they both probably draw from the same sources and information; of course they are going to look similar whether its your intention or not.)


You know your right, the top of my first post does come off as if its accusing you of something you probably didn't do; so I apologize for that. What I had meant to convey in that post is that what you have written and what Lexicanum has both seem similar and likely come from the same source material. (Taking a step back and looking at posts or articles again does help.)


I can only say to you what others have said to me elsewhere; do you honestly think that wherever you go and put up your material, no one will point out that something like that can be found already? Once someone does it one place, you can bet someone else out there in the world will be able to do it too. Now Nemesis already said it before, you have all the information here rather than scattered about as some of it is; thats why it is good, but that doesn't change the fact that it appears a bit like other stuff thats already up elsewhere. I can't stress this enough, it comes from the same sources, its going to look similar.