sonsofcorax.freeforums.org

this has been bugging me for abit now, having seen some of the polls that come up here and whatnot. but even tho the IA article may have said that Corax was known for his precision strikes and all that good stuff, do you think that he wouldn't always use these tactics???

my personal case in point for this is the dropsite massacre. if he was really the type for the tactics RG is known for now, then he shouldnt really have lost nearly the whole chapter in that battle. however i do understand that fighting astartes is alot different than greenskins, or eldar. it just bugs me that for someone to be normally so tactically sound as to not commit very many troops to a battle, and use a small force in precisely the right spot, then the dropsite massacre should have ended with the horus heresy never beginning, IMO.

...What exactly is the weak spot of 30,000 heavily fortified traitor Marines and 4 Traitor Primarchs who know full well that you're coming for them??

The classic RG tactics (ambushing supply lines, targeting rear areas, hitting from multiple points at once, etc.) really didn't apply at Istvaan V - there was just the one massive force of Marines, dug in and waiting for them. No supply lines to cut, no rear echelon to harrass, no thin spots to strike at, and just try taking out their command structure - Mortarion, Angron, Fulgrim and Horus, plus bodyguards?!? Good luck!

Corax and the RG are masters of unconventional warfare, but they also know full well that sometimes the direct approach is the only option... Istvaan V was one of those times - the sheer numbers, quality and self-sufficiency of the traitor legions wiped out all the subtle options.

A nutcracker is a wonderful tool, simple, straightforward and effective. But some nuts are just so tough to crack that you've got to go straight to the sledgehammer.

Considering that plus the additional 40,000 Traitors and 4 additional Traitor Primarchs attacking them from their own landing zone, the loyalists really shouldn't have had any hope of making it off that planet alive, let alone turning it into some sort of victory!

Wraith put succintly what i was going to say...

Sometimes it's the only way, and in those situations, Corax knows that he has to do what he has to do.

Besides, the plan was drawn up by Dorn, none of the loyalists suspected that the other 4 legions being sent were traitors. By right, that strategy would have worked...were it not for the traitors.

well then, perhaps Corax should have planned it, and not Dorn... things would have turned out differently methinks.

Probably not. Dorn is described as having the greatest military mind of all the primarchs, and given the disposition and numbers of the traitor legions, I doubt Corax, for all of his strengths, could come up with something better.

Remember though, Corax's role in the battle. He and Vulkan both fell back relatively early in the engagement to 'allow our other brothers to gain honor' (read, regroup and reform because of our high casualties). Corax also acted as a curb on Ferrus Manus' hot-tempered disposition before the battle.

He did the best he could.

There was nothing more Corax could have done at the drop site massacre other than what he did.
The Raven Guard captain that lead the large breakout was one of Corax's elites. When the traitors closed in for the kill they relaxed a bit and he using corax's training struck a weak spot and lead about 700 RG to the transporters along with about 500 salamanders and a few Iron Hands.

It just shows that Corax didn't corner the market on suprise tactics.

Remember, that before you critize Corax's tactics...would you really have rather he ran away? Remember, uphold the honour of the Adeptus Astartes! Never flee! (Althought occassional tactical retreats will be accepted!)

Also, remember that before the Heresy, Corax's claim to fame wasn't guerilla warfare, but rather a) the ability to identify enemy weak points and apply precise pressure to take it out and b) the ability to get into any so called "impregnable" fortresses.

With that in mind, it's only natural that Corax would have gone with the first wave to get a better view of the target before regrouping with the other legions to launch a stronger assault...It's basic harrassing, but then the whole traitor thing happened and well, the rest is history.

however, from reading the HH books, it has been said that if Dorn was defending something, it would take horus an infinite war with him in order to break the defenses.... i guess that Corax would still have been known as something of a guerrilla tactic expert, because theres more than one way to get into 'impregnable' fortresses.

They would have still been quite good at guerilla tactics but that was not their specialty. After the massacre they had to practice guerilla warfare because they had a lot less equipment and people

The main problem was, Horus knew Corax's tactics. Even if Corax had decided not to go with the sledgehammer plan and instead dropped a few elite units in to attack from a different position, Horus would still have been prepared.

And then you have to consider that even if the loyalists had won on Istvaan V then Horus would have just plague-bombed the planet and killed them all anyway.

Well actually he couldn't of virus bombed the planet because the loyalists had space superiority until the traitor legions came in. But if the loyalists won then there wouldn't of been any traitor legions and no Horus to bombard them

After reading some HH books, i think it wants Corax tactics that were wrong, i mean at first we were winning, and then the night lords etc came,

we thinking them still loyal, withdrew to the dropsite, to allow our battle brother to gain victory for them selves and for us to regroup after the first battle.

its then when we nearly lost the whole chapter, as all of the reinforcements, that we thought were friendly turned on us and destroyed wave after wave of tropps in just seconds, so it was trust in our brothers that let us down not Corax or his tactics!!!!

~Our Primarch's name is Corax, not corvus ~ SyNidus

I wouldn't say it's our trust in our brothers.

Why? because SM need to trust their brothers...There was no way of them knowing the betrayal.